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Amarr scout racial bonus parity problem

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True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5893	Posted - 2014.01.19 06:56:00 - [1] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: you guys know the suit is bonused with stamina to begin with, right? 25% of the bonused base in actual numbers is actually pretty decent. But in no way is comparable to a proto profile dampener or Hack module....not to mention the other suits get a secondary bonus that we Amarr don't. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5894	Posted - 2014.01.19 09:29:00 - [2] - Quote Morathi III wrote: In the name of the emperess ( that i hope she's sexy ) im agree with this request! But dont Forget amarrian you start with good stats and i think the bonus to stamina is better than you think We have higher base HP and Stamina for slower shield recharge times, slower overall speed, and normally one less slot. We should not be bartering with the base stats which make our race unique, only the bonus matters in this regard. What we get for free for being Amarrian is not equivalent to what the other suits get for being what they are. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5894	Posted - 2014.01.19 09:45:00 - [3] - Quote Morathi III wrote: True Adamance wrote: Morathi III wrote: In the name of the emperess ( that i hope she's sexy ) im agree with this request! But dont Forget amarrian you start with good stats and i think the bonus to stamina is better than you think We have higher base HP and Stamina for slower shield recharge times, slower overall speed, and normally one less slot. We should not be bartering with the base stats which make our race unique, only the bonus matters in this regard. What we get for free for being Amarrian is not equivalent to what the other suits get for being what they are. True but like you say you dont have th+¬ disadvantage of th+¬ slot less, i think too th+¬ suit lack +á bonus, my personnal feeling tend to go to get +á bonus with th+¬ uplink in my mind since its amarrian The logi already has that covered. Why should the Amarr scout get a sub par bonus towards a core aspect of scouting? You have yet to explain this. Mainly my question is. Why are the other suits getting the equivalent of Proto scout themed modules, but the Amarr is only getting a standard? They essentially have one built in complex module they don't have to fit, and can fit a second without the fitting penalties. However the argument seems to be that if the Amarr get a complex Cardiac regulator they will somehow be OP? "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5894	Posted - 2014.01.19 09:56:00 - [4] - Quote GRIM GEAR wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Morathi III wrote: True Adamance wrote: Morathi III wrote: In the name of the emperess ( that i hope she's sexy ) im agree with this request! But dont Forget amarrian you start with good stats and i think the bonus to stamina is better than you think We have higher base HP and Stamina for slower shield recharge times, slower overall speed, and normally one less slot. We should not be bartering with the base stats which make our race unique, only the bonus matters in this regard. What we get for free for being Amarrian is not equivalent to what the other suits get for being what they are. True but like you say you dont have th+¬ disadvantage of th+¬ slot less, i think too th+¬ suit lack +á bonus, my personnal feeling tend to go to get +á bonus with th+¬ uplink in my mind since its amarrian But no other race gets the disadvantage of a loss of slot either. In fact, it seems CCP realized that the Amarr loss of a slot disadvantage was a bit ridiculous. Look at the new Amarr Sentinel and Amarr Commando stats, they have the same amount of slots as all the other races and also get more HP, more stamina, and an equal value racial bonus. All of this seemingly balanced by two factors: 1) Slow movement speed 2) The Amarr are an armor race, but actually get a considerable less amount of PG than the other armor race (Gallente). Try building some fits using these new stats, you are scraping for every last bit of PG even with skills as the way up. I think you just hit the jackpot it seems like the heavy Amarr suits trump the other heavy races, so maybe Amarr are not really good when it comes to puny sneaky suits and therefore have the wooden spoon when it comes to scout suit racial/passive skills............. How do you like my theory?????? I mean surley one race can't be better and or equal in all roles????? I'm not sure CCP would make such a small minded and arbitrary decision as that. Even though some racial groups ship types eve side are not necessarily as good as others, the bonuses always make sense and are balanced. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5894	Posted - 2014.01.19 10:23:00 - [5] - Quote GRIM GEAR wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: GRIM GEAR wrote: I think you just hit the jackpot it seems like the heavy Amarr suits trump the other heavy races, so maybe Amarr are not really good when it comes to puny sneaky suits and therefore have the wooden spoon when it comes to scout suit racial/passive skills............. How do you like my theory?????? I mean surley one race can't be better and or equal in all roles????? Why do you say the Amarr sentinels will be the best sentinels? What evidence do you have to that? I pointed out a few positives to it, but also some pretty big negatives. Honestly the Gallente sentinel is looking the best to me but hard to tell, they all look pretty good. So why does your theory-crafting on Amarr sentinels mean Amarr scouts should get gimped? Well theres having the highest hit points also the highest stamina and stamina regen and the second overall shield recharge rates. Theres not much else to compare between the heavy suits, they all get equal racial bonuses. The Amarr scout suit does have the highest hit points by far also the highest stamina and stamina regen, though seems to lack compared to the other racial scout suits when it comes to racial bonuses. The Amarr scout suit(SS) is third equal when it comes to shield recharge rates although it does come in first place with a combined total including core skills of 75 shield and 212 armour total of 287 ehp. The Caldari SS has 162 shield and 87 armour for a total ehp of 249. The Gallente SS has 87 shield and 162 armour for a total ehp of 249. Now the Minmatar SS has 125 shield and 87 armour for a total of 212 ehp. Thats a whopping 75 ehp difference between the Minmatar and Amarr scout suits, yet you feel hard done by because the Minmatar scout suit has a 5% increase to Nova Knives damage and hacking speed per level. Whereas the Amarr SS only receives a 5% bones to stamina and stamina regen per level. You are failing to consider that one aspect of the Minmatar frame that makes it unique is the speed and shield regen rates. You cant argue basic facets of the suits and or the base racial differences. This is about the bonuses. Why some suits get proto level module bonuses and why on of the FOUR RACIAL groups does not. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5896	Posted - 2014.01.19 10:53:00 - [6] - Quote GRIM GEAR wrote: True Adamance wrote: GRIM GEAR wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: GRIM GEAR wrote: I think you just hit the jackpot it seems like the heavy Amarr suits trump the other heavy races, so maybe Amarr are not really good when it comes to puny sneaky suits and therefore have the wooden spoon when it comes to scout suit racial/passive skills............. How do you like my theory?????? I mean surley one race can't be better and or equal in all roles????? Why do you say the Amarr sentinels will be the best sentinels? What evidence do you have to that? I pointed out a few positives to it, but also some pretty big negatives. Honestly the Gallente sentinel is looking the best to me but hard to tell, they all look pretty good. So why does your theory-crafting on Amarr sentinels mean Amarr scouts should get gimped? Well theres having the highest hit points also the highest stamina and stamina regen and the second overall shield recharge rates. Theres not much else to compare between the heavy suits, they all get equal racial bonuses. The Amarr scout suit does have the highest hit points by far also the highest stamina and stamina regen, though seems to lack compared to the other racial scout suits when it comes to racial bonuses. The Amarr scout suit(SS) is third equal when it comes to shield recharge rates although it does come in first place with a combined total including core skills of 75 shield and 212 armour total of 287 ehp. The Caldari SS has 162 shield and 87 armour for a total ehp of 249. The Gallente SS has 87 shield and 162 armour for a total ehp of 249. Now the Minmatar SS has 125 shield and 87 armour for a total of 212 ehp. Thats a whopping 75 ehp difference between the Minmatar and Amarr scout suits, yet you feel hard done by because the Minmatar scout suit has a 5% increase to Nova Knives damage and hacking speed per level. Whereas the Amarr SS only receives a 5% bones to stamina and stamina regen per level. You are failing to consider that one aspect of the Minmatar frame that makes it unique is the speed and shield regen rates. You cant argue basic facets of the suits and or the base racial differences. This is about the bonuses. Why some suits get proto level module bonuses and why on of the FOUR RACIAL groups does not. You Sir seem to be forgetting how good sprint speed is when you have no stamina to sprint with; do tell? By the way True Adamance you need to clean you're nose you seem to have some kind of fecal matter on it. Doesn't matter, you have yet to address why 3 other racial variants should have the equivalent of complex modules as their bonuses and one shouldn't. You make yourself look less credible the more you dodge the question. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5901	Posted - 2014.01.19 17:41:00 - [7] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I'll just leave this here from page 2, it seems to have been overlooked by Mr. Gear. John Demonsbane wrote: Seriously though, why are you comparing base stats to bonuses? Those are different discussions. The fact that they are slower compensates for the higher eHP. This is true for every Amarr suit of every class. P.s. The brown nose comment is just sad. Meh what he didn't know is that Aero and I were sitting on Skype discussing the suit, the bonuses, other potential bonuss, his commando fits, my scout fits, etc. Those aren't just his opinions, they are mine too. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5943	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:34:00 - [8] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: While the theory is sound, the amarr scout already has 10% more stamina and 33% more regen over caldari and gallente before you factor any bonuses At level 5 supports and scout, the amarr has 295 stamina and 52.5 regen, 52.5 regen is INSANELY HIGH Under the proposed change to 100% to both stats, this would end up as 472.5 and 84 regen (for every 47 seconds of sprint, you need 6 seconds to regen it to full), Bare in mind that this is a scout that, at proto level, can reach 1000 hp without seriously denting its cpu and pg, there is more than enough left over for an (R) type nanohive, another equip and 2 weapons of choice Even as a runner scout, this would again be extremely unbalanced, there would be nothing stopping you fitting 3 sprint speed mods and becoming about as fast as a minny scout with higher stamina, regen and base health I do not support this idea What fool would try to use a 1000HP scout......you might as well run the Commando, or Logi. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5944	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:44:00 - [9] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: True Adamance wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: While the theory is sound, the amarr scout already has 10% more stamina and 33% more regen over caldari and gallente before you factor any bonuses At level 5 supports and scout, the amarr has 295 stamina and 52.5 regen, 52.5 regen is INSANELY HIGH Under the proposed change to 100% to both stats, this would end up as 472.5 and 84 regen (for every 47 seconds of sprint, you need 6 seconds to regen it to full), Bare in mind that this is a scout that, at proto level, can reach 1000 hp without seriously denting its cpu and pg, there is more than enough left over for an (R) type nanohive, another equip and 2 weapons of choice Even as a runner scout, this would again be extremely unbalanced, there would be nothing stopping you fitting 3 sprint speed mods and becoming about as fast as a minny scout with higher stamina, regen and base health I do not support this idea What fool would try to use a 1000HP scout......you might as well run the Commando, or Logi. much smaller hit box, more stamina, more equipment slots than commando, when you dont need the logi/commando bonuses, more speed, better hacking speed, better regen stats (shield, stamina) And this is why FPS players are a garbage community. Not one player can seem to think of any other way than exploiting in game mechanics for their own game..... I have been waiting to use Amarrian weapons and Scout suits, and vehicles for months now... yet that will be ruined by twats like the people you describe? Hmmmmm. Wondering why people cant just embrace the role they selected. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5944	Posted - 2014.01.20 09:49:00 - [10] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: And now for the fun part, The Amarr Scout racial bonus is 5% stamina recovery and max stamina per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of less than one basic cardiac regulator, and that's it. A basic cardiac regulator does 25% more stamina and 50% more stamina recovery. you can sprint for 30seconds with max skill on this suit. you can basically sprint from one objective to another without ever stopping and you also forget the other build in bonus, which is the highest HP of all scout suits. Aero Yassavi wrote: The Minmatar Scout racial bonus is 5% hacking speed and nova knife damage per level. At level 5, this is the equivalent of one free complex code breaker and multiple free complex sidearm damage modifiers not entirely correct. first, this is a damage bonus on the suit with the least amoutns of HP for a weapon that requires being in your face to work. and second, this bonus is NOT equal to several multiple sidearm damage mods, sidearm damage mods give a bonus to all sidearm weapons... So my question to you is this. Why do you feel other suits deserve proto level module bonuses. Can you suggest something for the Amarr to put them on par with these other suit? Why should the Amarr suits barter for bonuses with their base stats which make them unique like the high shield of the Caldari, the high armour of the gallente, or the base speed of the Minmatar? "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."

True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5945	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:04:00 - [11] - Quote Fristname Family name wrote: They did this cause ammar sucks. No offence. +îf you want to get complex mod in bounuses how bout you spec into dropsuit biotics and then the dampeners, ect. Also i havent checked out slots but I might get a second scout suit. That's the poorest argument I have heard yet. We can have 2 bonuses, one of which being a proto level code breaker, but because you guys simply suck you can have **** bonus. Come on you can atleast troll better than that cant you? Either that or stop making yourself look foolish and vastly less credible. I'm just waiting on Aero now to finish his calculations on the Gallente Scout when brick tanked. Which would be amazing since you get similar fitting capacity, and a 15% scan radius bonus, and a 25% profile dampener. That to me seems like the much better OP choice. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5946	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:10:00 - [12] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: You can't say "Let's give this suit a better bonus because it has worse base stats" or "Let's give this suit a worse bonus because it has better base stats." sure, the amarr bonus could use a bit of tweaking but your assumption is wrong. actually you can and this is how balancing works. I also think the amarr bonus, while maybe a bit too low, is underrated by many. the amarr scout is obviously more geared towards combat with the HP it has and with the stamina bonus it can move around the map over long distances faster than other suits despite having the lowest sprint speed of all scouts and due to this provide flanking and firepower where it is needed. So you would force the Amarr scout into a combat role where as all other scouts are what they are meant to be, scouting stealth roles? And that if I say wanted to run said suit I would be forced into a light Assault or Light Logi role? "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5949	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:25:00 - [13] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: at no point did i say the amarr scout doesn't deservse better bonuses, i merely stated that if your proposal went ahead, the amarr would have the same stats as gallente but double stamina and over double stamina regen, which may outstrip a minny scout at being the runner at the start of a match The Amarr scout would have similar stats but over double the Gallente's stamina, but the Gallente would have similar stats and a far more reduced profile signature and increased scan radius. The amarr scout already has nearly 50% more stamina and nearly double the stamina regen, While the gallente is getting a nice profile sig reduction, scanners are also getting buffed by way of the new gal logi bonuses and has a counter, stamina and its regen does not have a counter So you are saying that because 1 suit has a bonus to scanners that is fine when you consider leaving the Amarr suit with sub par bonuses, because as it stand the Gal Scout will evadae Adv scanners with no points invested into Profile dampening. And frankly speaking when you consider the scouts already have more biotic potential than assaults....... the ability to go unseen on passive and active scans is far more valuable. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5949	Posted - 2014.01.20 10:31:00 - [14] - Quote Tech De Ra wrote: True Adamance wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Tech De Ra wrote: at no point did i say the amarr scout doesn't deservse better bonuses, i merely stated that if your proposal went ahead, the amarr would have the same stats as gallente but double stamina and over double stamina regen, which may outstrip a minny scout at being the runner at the start of a match The Amarr scout would have similar stats but over double the Gallente's stamina, but the Gallente would have similar stats and a far more reduced profile signature and increased scan radius. The amarr scout already has nearly 50% more stamina and nearly double the stamina regen, While the gallente is getting a nice profile sig reduction, scanners are also getting buffed by way of the new gal logi bonuses and has a counter, stamina and its regen does not have a counter So you are saying that because 1 suit has a bonus to scanners that is fine when you consider leaving the Amarr suit with sub par bonuses, because as it stand the Gal Scout will evadae Adv scanners with no points invested into Profile dampening. And frankly speaking when you consider the scouts already have more biotic potential than assaults....... the ability to go unseen on passive and active scans is far more valuable. again, I am not against changing the current bonus to amarr scouts as i stated in a previous post, i am merely against raising the bonus to that of a complex stamina mod Do you consider it unreasonable to give Amarr scouts a complex Cardiac Regulator as the level 5 bonus? For upwards of 3 million SP and only one specific bonus as compared to the Gal, Cal, and Min bonuses we deserve something worthwhile. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5965	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:08:00 - [15] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Please for the love of god IWS stay out of balancing discussions. Be excessively careful who you want to discount because one can easily make fool of another. I just shot from the hip with gut feelings. Good thing I followed through. Amarr AK.0 (x = invalid) (* First worst to most worst) 25% Stamina and 25% Regeneration Rate 1 Light (x) 1 Side (x) 1 Grenade (x) 2 Equipment (x) 2 High (**) 4 Low () 70 Grid () 340 CPU () Armor 170 () Armor Heal 0 (x) Shields 60 (**) Shield Delay 4 () Full Delay 6 (*) Shield Refresh 30 hp/s () Hack Bonus 5% () Max Stamina 225 () Stamina Charge 40 sp/s () TTSM = 5.6 Secs () (Gk.0 is at 6.666... ranking *) Ground Speed 525/40(this assumes UE3 conversions) = 13.125 meters/s () (which seems wrong but for sake of measuring shoe sizes the /40 is tangible measurement for our needs here ) With Bonuses Applied Max Stamina 2251.25 = 281.25 Stamina Charge = 50 sp/s TTSM = 5.625 Throw in Biotics to V Max Stamina 281.251.05 = 295.05 Stamina Charge = 52.5 TTSM = 5.62 vs the GK 0's 210 31.5 and 6.666... Now lets throw car rads in, proto lvl 5 skills (10% bonus to the bonus yo) First one on each Complex Cardiac Regulator 110% Stamina 110% Recovery Ak. 0 MS 619.605 SC 110.25 TTSM 5.62 GS 13.25 m/s Gk. 0 MS 441 SC 66.15 TTSM 6.66 GS 13.625 m/s Stamina is consumed 10 units per second while sprinting, running does not penalize regeneration, sprinting adds 40% more speed so Ak. 0 13.251.4 = 18.55 Sprint speed 18.55(619.605/10) = 1149.37 Meters covered per sprint or 1.15 kms 5.62 Seconds to max stamina the amarrian would cover 74.4 meters Time is now 67.6 seconds with 1223.77 meters covered So True M/S is 18.10 m/s* Gk. 0 13.6251.4 = 19.075 Sprint Speed 19.075(441/10) = 841.21 meters covered 6.66 second to max stamina the gallente would cover 90.74 meters Time is now 60.7 seconds with only 931.95 So True M/S is 15.35 m/s Feeling Sorry for the Gallente I threw in a Kin Kat Complex at max level = 13.2% bonus (13.6251.132)1.4 = 21.5929 spring speed whoohoo 952 meters covered 6.66 covers 102.72 meters Time is 60.7 covering only 1054.72 True M/S is 17.375 m/s The gallente would almost have to use 3/4 lot slots just to compete against a single card reg amarrian. Also the other big thing that is probably going to bother everyone. There are no sensor stats on the suit sheet either so we have no idea how those stats are distributed. And now I just got asked to do the 5k run with everyone, bleh, wait one while I spread sheet fu this. Holy cow, your wrong about nearly everything you wrote there. Once again, you should stay out of balance discussions. So, you realize that all skill multipliers are, as the name implies, multiplicative right? So this means we can work with base stats and come out with the same ratios. What I mean is we can leave out skills modifiers here as they just add work. Anyway, I don't even know where to begin. The amarrian suit is 96% as fast (walking/sprinting/whatever) as a caldar/gallente suit The amarrian suit is 93% as fast as a minmatar suit is The amarrian suit has (without bonuses) 12.5% more stamina and 33% more stamina recovery as a caldari/gallente suit 4% more stamina and 12.5% more stamina recovery as the minmatar suit So, advantages here are pretty slim to none. The amarrian suit is the slowest, and over the first 30 seconds of running will lag behind all the other suits. Of course for being the slowest, it gets a small HP (like 1 AR round worth) bonus. Just like how the minmatar suit is faster, but sacrifices some HP for that speed. Standard Dust/eve fair so far right? So, with a 5%/lvl bonus to stamina/recovery, the max bonus the amarrian suit can garner is 25% stamina/recovery. This means that the ENTIRE MAXED AMARRIAN BONUS CAN BE MITIGATED BY LESS THAN 1 MILITIA MODULE. How f-cking hard is this to understand IWS? 1 militia module and all of the other scouts are now comparatively better the amarrian scout. It is so freaking simple I don't know how to explain it in a simpler way. The bonuses can be directly related to module effects, and as such can be directly related with modules. This way we can count the effectiveness of the bonuses in modules. In other words, if you fit this exact number of modules on a different suit, you would arrive at the same performance level as the suit in question. Minmatar suit bonuses = 5 modules (4 prototype and 1 basic) Gallente suit bonuses = 3 modules (1 proto 1 adv 1 basic) Caldari suit bonuses = 3 modules (1 proto 2 basic) Amarr suit bonuses = 1 module (less than 1 militia) The underlined section is essentially the counter Llast36 mentions in another of his arguments. He said the Amarrian bonus cant be countered. I say the Amarrian bonus, due to the suits lows speed, is essentially countered until you hit this threshold where we can still run and the other scouts consume their stamina. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 6080	Posted - 2014.01.22 19:14:00 - [16] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Now that we have the cloak info, I'm pretty convinced that I just want the original cloaking bonus (reduced recharge) + a small stamina bonus. Amarr scouts will be terrible without a cloak. They are slow (especially if plated) they aren't bonused against scanners, they will be like weak versions of the Minmatar Assault if not fitting the cloak. The cloak will be the Amarr scout's primary means of defense, and they're the most "technologically advanced" race so a bonus to cloaks makes sense with the lore. However we can't really neglect game balance like that. Let Amarr scouts have cloak bonuses and we become the FoTM of scouts. Let the Gal be the FoTM of scouts. Gal Scout= best assault in the game. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."